[00:00:00] Samantha Martin: If you're calling in from West Coast, good morning. If you're calling in, maybe from Europe. Good evening. Happy lunar New Year, everyone. Happy Mardi Gras. Happy Fat Tuesday. Really excited. For our conversation today I am Samantha Martin. I am the communications director at Cleveland Water Alliance and really excited for the panel that we have for you all today about exciting Ohio technology.
[00:00:39] We have some really incredible innovators. In Ohio, we wanted to shine a spotlight on them. At CWA, we get a front row seat to really exciting technology from all over the world, and we have a pretty good crop right here in Ohio. If I do say so myself.
[00:00:59] So just wanted to check in and see where everyone's calling in from. Go ahead and put in the chat where you're calling in from. We typically get a really good global audience for these kinds of events and curious to see where everyone is is calling in from today.
[00:01:20] Just a little bit of housekeeping here. We have plenty of time reserved at the end for Q&A. I know we typically have a really interested and active audience and we wanna make sure that we get to your questions. So go ahead and ask any questions via the Q&A function and we'll make sure we get to them at the end of the panel.
[00:01:44] So a little bit about Cleveland Water Alliance. If you are not familiar with us, welcome. We're excited to get to know you. CWA is a nonprofit that is really an economic development engine. Focused on water technology. I like to say that we're tackling global water issues while benefiting Ohio's economy.
[00:02:06] And most everyone knows about our history with water in Ohio, in the Cleveland area, along the Cuyahoga, we're the reason for the Clean Water Act and subsequently the EPA because of our history with not only pollution on the water. But cleaning up that pollution and figuring out how industries can do better and protect and can conserve our water resources better for a healthier future.
[00:02:33] And so that really has made our region one of the highest concentrations of water expertise. In the world and CWA exists to convene these institutions that have been traditionally siloed all working together to solve water issues. So we have our research institutions, we have really world class utilities here.
[00:02:53] We have really incredible innovators. Like some you'll see today, corporations. Water using industries. And traditionally these industries have been siloed. So CWA convenes all these folks together and make, makes sure that we are accelerating market driven innovation and we love our Ohio innovators.
[00:03:16] That's what we're focusing on today. We accelerate that water tech innovation, not only find it in. Scout it, but we want to accelerate it. And because of our testbed infrastructure, which I'll talk about in a little bit, we are attracting global businesses to do business in Ohio. There's really incredible global innovation driven by legislation overseas, driven by other entities that are funding that innovation.
[00:03:44] And we want them to come to business in Ohio and enter the US market through us. And we also provide meaningful data to our water managers here. So how do we do it? We really have a deep understanding on the trends and the market needs. We have a finger on the pulse. Like I said, we're connecting those end users with those creating technology, because traditionally in the US there has not been a really good pipeline.
[00:04:10] See, we love to use a, a water pun when we can a pipeline for these entities. To talk to one another because our utilities in the US can't answer the phone every time someone has a good idea. We vet that technology, we allow them to test and trial in our test bed infrastructures after this bespoke matchmaking process.
[00:04:29] And we facilitate pilots in the us and not only in the Ohio and Cleveland region, but all over. We also like to offer access to funds and business support services, introductions to customers and investors and end users whenever we can as well. So we're all about accelerating water, water tech. We're all about making an economic impact in our region.
[00:04:52] Sometimes that requires us to look at, to innovation outside of our region, and sometimes we get to spotlight innovators in our region like we do today. So that brings me. To our panelists, the reason everyone is here today. So starting off, I'm just gonna do a brief introduction and then we'll get started into the discussion where folks can speak a little bit deeper about who they are and what they do.
[00:05:17] So first off, we have Dennis Flood. Now Dennis, your family has such a great name to be in water technology. I really feel like you were destined to do it because Dennis not only has more than 20 years of experience in high tech startups, but CoreWater his company is, it's a three generation, ordeal, right? Is that correct, Dennis? Three generations of the floods?
[00:05:41] Dennis M. Flood: Yep, that's correct. There's we are flooded with floods.
[00:05:45] Samantha Martin: I love it. And CoreWater is advancing water treatment solutions to meet the global pfas or PFAS, depending on how you wanna say it. Challenge and you are based in Oberlin, Dennis.
[00:05:59] Correct.
[00:05:59] Dennis M. Flood: Yes, that's right. Yep.
[00:06:01] Samantha Martin: All right. And next up we have Cleveland Water Alliance Pennington. Cleveland Water Alliance is the co-founder and CEO of a Cleanr. And Cleanr was born from a few really smart case students. So Case is located in Cleveland. I don't know about everyone else. But when I was in undergrad, I was not concerned with solving global water issues.
[00:06:22] So pretty incredible that this, these group of students turned an idea into a reality. And that idea is a, a microplastics filtration device for in-home washing machines. And Cleveland Water Alliance was just selected as a Forbes 30 under 30 recipient and Cleanr took home a CES Innovation Award this year. So big things happening with Cleanr.
[00:06:44] So glad to have you here, Cleveland Water Alliance.
[00:06:46] Max Pennington: Thanks for having me.
[00:06:49] Samantha Martin: And then we have Steve Ostanek and he's the president and owner of Neundorfer, and Steve has been with Neundorfer for 40 years. Is that correct, Steve? So you started working when you were five years old, is that right?
[00:07:00] Steve Ostanek: High High School, yeah. Actually it's, it's 43.
[00:07:03] Samantha Martin: Oh my gosh.
[00:07:04] Congratulations.
[00:07:05] Congratulations and Neundorfer for just celebrated 50 years in business and is located in Willoughby. And Steve is starting to champion the introduction of new technologies and applications. Neundorfer for has traditionally worked in air pollution, control, filtration and processes, end-to-end solutions.
[00:07:28] And now looking into introducing new technology that can. Be applied in the water space and resource management and recovery. So it's an exciting time for Neundorfer.
[00:07:39] Steve Ostanek: Thank you.
[00:07:39] Samantha Martin: So I'm gonna go ahead and stop sharing my screen right now. And I wanna just kick it off. Let's start with you, Steve. And so let's keep it really basic, really simple.
[00:07:50] You're talking to someone maybe not in water tech. How would you describe your technology in just a few sentences?
[00:08:01] Steve Ostanek: That's a hard one. I'll do my best. Basically we are using low voltage electrical pulses to enhance the biology of the organics that are in the in the, in the water stream.
[00:08:22] And that in turn allows you know, from a simple term better, better biodegradation of, of those, of those organics and also allows things like nutrients to precipitate out of the organic matter.
[00:08:41] Samantha Martin: And where does Neundorfer for fall on with this technology specifically on the tech readiness scale?
[00:08:51] Steve Ostanek: We would fall in the TRL eight.
[00:08:55] Samantha Martin: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:56] Steve Ostanek: If you assume that TRL nine is commercialization Yeah, we are, we're pretty much ready to go.
[00:09:03] Samantha Martin: And who is the end user of that tech?
[00:09:05] Steve Ostanek: is, it's kind of a, a, a broad range, you know, in the in the water treatment world. It or it's the wa wastewater treatment and recovery systems in the in the biogas world.
[00:09:22] It is the owners and operators of anaerobic digesters on on farms that are, that are trying to convert organic matter into, into biogas. And then from a nutrient pollution standpoint it's the farmer comes down to the, to the farmer treating lagoons.
[00:09:45] Samantha Martin: Thanks, Steve. Same question for you, Dennis.
[00:09:48] Just in a few sentences, describe your technology.
[00:09:52] Dennis M. Flood: Okay, just a few sentences. So it really is dependent on people understanding what the PFAS issue is. PFAS are manmade chemicals that are used to enhance certain products, making things oil and water resistant. They are called forever chemicals 'cause they don't break down on their own.
[00:10:13] There's a huge need for remediation of PFAS. We are targeting, initially we're targeting water treatment, potable water treatment, drinking water. There are existing technologies that work really well at taking PFAS out of water. We specifically designed our technology and our absorbent, patented absorbent to not only take it outta water, but we are able to then apply a rinse to remove the contaminants isolate them for subsequent destruction.
[00:10:47] So we are developing a full remediation onsite for pfas.
[00:10:55] Samantha Martin: And where does your technology fall on the tech readiness? Yes.
[00:10:59] Dennis M. Flood: Sorry, I forgot that. That's okay. So we're, we're currently, I would say we're TRL six. We're heading into TRL seven. We're in the midst of our first pilot test third party pilot test for on the absorption end for our particle.
[00:11:15] We're working with an environmental engineering firm to help us to design and build our pilot test skid. Piloting for absorbance is very well known. It's an easy thing to set up, but for, for our process we need to build the skid ourselves, so we're in the middle of engineering that and, and having it built.
[00:11:36] That's what sends us into TRL seven.
[00:11:40] Samantha Martin: And describe the person or entity who would be using your technology.
[00:11:45] Dennis M. Flood: Yeah, so we're initially targeting water treatment plants, potable water treatment, but there are a lot of areas where this can be applied. And part of the reason that we picked portable water is that for one thing, it's a big market.
[00:11:59] It's the forecast. They don't really know how big that market's gonna be. Some, some estimates that we've seen, one from Black and Veatch, which came out probably a little more than a year ago. In the US alone, they're figuring it's gonna be about $4 billion a year for PFAS remediation. And the thing about it is it's a large enough market that there are several different technologies, several different absorbent that will be used and will be needed to, to take care of ultimately removing PFAS from the environment.
[00:12:37] Samantha Martin: Thanks, Dennis. And same over to you, Cleveland Water Alliance.
[00:12:42] Max Pennington: Yeah, I, I think similar to Dennis it's important to understand the microplastics problem for what we do at Cleanr. So the thing that got us started was learning that our laundry, really our clothing, is the largest source of microplastic pollution. A lot of people have now heard about microplastics, which is not the case when we got started, but they've been found in your brain, they've been found in your blood, they've been found in your lungs, on the top of the Mount of Mount Everest, in the bottom of the Mariana Trench.
[00:13:10] I think a really commonly overlooked source of them is your clothing. So you actually interact with it every day to day. When you take the dryer lint filter out and you scrape all of the lint off, that's actually plastic coming from your clothes, whether it's polyester or nylon. So our technology that we patented is called Vortex, which really extends the lifetime of a filter and helps you filter down smaller than you could with traditional filtration technology.
[00:13:35] And we've applied that to our first product, which is an external washing machine filter that can go on any washing machine and catch over 90% of microplastics down to 50 micron. But our vision is to have the technology integrated into washing machines in the future. And then we're also working to remove microplastics that come into your home.
[00:13:53] So our vision at Cleanr is really to take the technology and apply it to streams of microplastics leaving and coming into your home.
[00:14:00] Samantha Martin: And where do you fall on the TRL scale?
[00:14:05] Max Pennington: So it's different based on the products that we're developing. So with our external filter, it's in the market commercially available.
[00:14:12] So we have a hundred filters that cases purchased and installed, and they're all across campus getting way more loads of laundry done every day than you would ever think. So they're all connected to a, a dashboard. So we can actually see how many microplastics have been captured and, and how all of the filters are performing.
[00:14:29] We have them in homes. I have one in my home, my parents have one. People are buying them on the website. And then we're working and pushing to get the technology integrated and commercialized on the inside of the washing machine where we're done with the development. But it needs to really get industrialized.
[00:14:44] So we have a prototype version of that, and then we're working on a prototype of a point of entry. So coming into your home. So it depends on which product.
[00:14:54] Samantha Martin: And how did you guys get involved with this, Cleveland Water Alliance?
[00:14:57] Max Pennington: I was actually, so I'm from Cincinnati and then I came up to Cleveland to study chemical engineering and I was doing internships back at, in Cincinnati doing lifecycle assessments, so looking at sustainability of products and then along the way, got a bit obsessed with plastic pollution and was shocked to learn.
[00:15:17] Microplastics were coming off of our clothes and that it was the largest source. And then where I am today, it's the Sears think box, but it's the largest open innovator space in the United States and it's right here in Cleveland. So we came, started prototyping, and then we built Cleanr here.
[00:15:33] Samantha Martin: That's awesome.
[00:15:34] And I wanna ask Dennis the same thing, because you have a history in getting involved in some different tech startups. How did you end up with CoreWater.
[00:15:43] Dennis M. Flood: Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a good, good one. So I was involved in a previous startup. We were in the nanotechnology space- not related, but we were looking at water treatment for heavy metals.
[00:16:00] And we were looking at enhancing the surface of granular activated carbon and around 2018 we became aware of the PFAS issue and we started looking at, you know, what was being done. And at that time it was basically granular activated carbon or anion exchange resins. And once they were full.
[00:16:22] They were either burying them or burning them. So it was going into landfills, which is the, just exacerbating the problem. 'cause PFAS don't break down. They migrate long distances as Cleveland Water Alliance mentioned with microplastics. You can find 'em anywhere. They found 'em on the polar ice caps. They're in our blood. The estimate is about two more than 200 million Americans are drinking water that's contaminated with PFAS to some level.
[00:16:48] So. I, I got off off course there a little bit, but we were looking at, and we decided that we, it wasn't about just taking the PAS out of the water, it's what do you do with that material when it's, it's now a considered a hazardous material 'cause it has PFAS on it. And we developed a surface treatment for granular activated carbon that allows us to use a chemical rinse to remove the PFAS.
[00:17:13] And then it's a simple isolation technology. And at the time. When we started and we officially took in our first outside investment in late 2021 we were actually developing our own PFAS destruction system. It was based on photocatalysis and we developed a dual band gap, photo catalyst that would break down the PFAS with the right energy from a UV light.
[00:17:40] And it even could have been done solar. But at we, when we looked at the landscape of things, there were several PFAS destruction technologies that were well ahead of where we were in, in the development cycle. So we specifically designed our process, our particle and process to be agnostic to PFAS destruction.
[00:18:01] We are can provide a bridge for PFAS destruction technologies to get into drinking water treatment, portable water treatment. The way they're, they, they work and it's electrochemical destruction, super critical water oxidation, HALT, which is hydrothermal alkaline treatment. They all need a concentrated source to be economically and efficiently applied to PAS destruction and the, the flow rates, even in small water treatment plants is just too high for them to handle.
[00:18:36] Our process can provide a concentrated source that they can be applied at whatever. Rate that is most effective for them. So that's why we are talking with several different PFA s destruction companies about collaborating on our, our process.
[00:18:55] Samantha Martin: Yeah, that's a good segue, Dennis. First of all, did you see the Olympics news?
[00:18:59] I sure as well. Yeah, I, yeah. So PFAS in the news of some of the wax coating. On the skis and the equipment was pfas was, were detected there. And so teams were disqualified because of that. So in the news as, as recent as yesterday but also, you know, we're doing we are gonna be having our first, not only kind of our first lab sort of pilot experience, but also our first.
[00:19:31] Pfas pilot experience with, with you, with CoreWater. Could you talk a little bit about what that will look like?
[00:19:40] Dennis M. Flood: Yeah, yeah, that's, that's we're really gearing up for that and looking forward to that. That's with a company that we had heard about. They're located at here in the Great Lakes area.
[00:19:52] They're actually in Lansing, Michigan. Inspired Solutions. And, you know, we, we got reconnected Clean Water Lines helped us to reconnect with Inspired Solutions because we're looking for partners to do third party pilot testing and the Clean Water Lines Test bed network is, is, is. Great. It's been the perfect place for us to come and, and not only find a partner here in the Great Lakes region, but to have a place and to find a place, help us to find a place and get it set up and running.
[00:20:23] We're really excited about that. As an aside I'll probably take a lot of heat for this because I'm gonna mention one of the reasons we like Inspired Solutions. It's, it's an effective technology, but they are out of Michigan State University and you can't quite see my diploma there, but. I'm a Michigan State grad as well as my Chief Technical Officer, who's my father is a Michigan State grad.
[00:20:48] So we're, we're happy to be working with a company with a little bit of that lineage.
[00:20:53] Samantha Martin: We won't hold that against you, Dennis. Well, speaking of pilots. This past summer we got to pilot Neundorfer's, new technology that was in part funded by H2Ohio Tap the Technology Assessment Program. In partnership with the Ohio EPA we identified some farmers and, and we piloted this technology.
[00:21:17] Steve, do you wanna talk a bit about that experience and, and where we're at with analyzing the data right now?
[00:21:23] Steve Ostanek: Yeah. We were charged with full scale pilots. So these are not lab scale or anything like that. These are full scale pilots out in the field. We selected three farmers, three different dairy farms of various different sizes.
[00:21:45] In Western Ohio. And the the project was that we would take our technology, treat the lagoons. We were treating, I think our largest lagoon was two and a half million gallons of, of manure which is a lot of manure and that's only one farm. And, treat those lagoons and we had a very detailed regimen of lab analysis that we wanted to do.
[00:22:17] Of those, of those, of those samples, probably this is, well, not probably, this is the most rigid, detailed testing that we have done on this technology over the, the lifespan of the, of the tech, of the technology. And right now we partnered with with Heidelberg to do the, to do all the lab samples and testing.
[00:22:45] They are in process of, of that we should start seeing results back from them later by the end of this month probably. And then full report would be done April-ish type of thing. It's taken 'em a long time to process samples. 350 samples that we, that we gave them. But the exciting thing is, is we, we got to know the farmers.
[00:23:15] And they were very engaged. They understand the problem and, and the problem is nutrient runoff, nutrient pollution, primarily phosphorus. And what we're targeting is, is, is how much of the phosphorus can we get to liberate itself from the super? Layer of, of liquid at the top of the lagoon and have it fall to the to the bottom.
[00:23:43] This allows the farmer to apply this nitrogen rich, free fertilizer on their, on their fields whenever they want. Farmers are constricted by how much phosphorus they can put on. So if the phosphorus comes along for the ride, it limits their ability to, to do this. So they might have to look at investing in more lagoon space.
[00:24:07] And so. It, it has a multiple positive benefit. And right now it, it, you know, we're excited about the results and, and we're waiting patiently for, for them.
[00:24:24] Samantha Martin: Yeah, I think, you know, we're really fortunate in Ohio to have funding opportunities like this with H2Ohio and with Ohio EPA because, you know, the ag industry and the dairy industry, they're, they're huge in our state.
[00:24:38] They're incredibly important in our state. And also we're recognizing that nutrient runoff is an issue and how can we help these farmers? How can we empower these farmers? What kind of tools can we give them to better do what they're doing? So everyone can get their milk and their yogurt and also keep you know, our water resources.
[00:24:58] Clean and, and safe for our communities. So I think it's a really incredible program and, and very glad to be a part of it. And I'm excited to see what the data shows.
[00:25:07] Steve Ostanek: Same. Soon.
[00:25:09] Samantha Martin: Soon, yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, absolutely. If everyone wants to keep an eye out, once we have that information, we'll be making sure to make an announcement of, of everything and, and share that publicly.
[00:25:20] Steve Ostanek: Yeah. And, and I guess another point here to, to just make is, you know, we're, we're tackling a huge problem.
[00:25:27] Samantha Martin: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:29] Steve Ostanek: We have tackled the point source nutrient problem. Pretty, pretty well. But these are non-point sources, right? You know, you think about how many farms are just in western Ohio, how many lagoons are out there where are they situated?
[00:25:45] And so this is this is challenging and it's fun to be part of that and, and hopefully we can be part of a, part of a solution for this.
[00:25:55] Samantha Martin: Yeah, and I think just getting out on the farms, you know, we were fortunate to, to be out there and talk to those farmers. These farmers are the ones especially that we work with.
[00:26:05] They're not, they weren't massive, massive operations. These are relatively small farmers who have a very long to-do list, who have a lot of things to be concerned about, to worry about financials. And this is just, you know, another thing on, on their plate. So we wanna make sure that. We're we, we don't just innovate for the sake of innovation.
[00:26:26] We want to be able to create things that people can use that are accessible for them to use and make sense for them to use. So that's why doing pilots like this are, are so important.
[00:26:35] Dennis M. Flood: It's huge.
[00:26:36] Samantha Martin: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I wanna turn it over to Cleveland Water Alliance now. Dennis talked a little bit about the state of, of PFAS and, you know, PFAS, capturing and destruction.
[00:26:47] It's, it's not, both of those things kind of need to play together to be able to have a solution. Same thing with, with microplastics, where, what is the state of microplastics monitoring and capturing in the US as it relates to other countries?
[00:27:03] Max Pennington: I think the US is behind, but really all of the other countries are behind too.
[00:27:08] I, I think microplastics are definitely an emerging contaminant. As you look at a lot of the research. I think it's a newer contaminant than than PFAS that's coming to everyone's attention. Where I think over the last two years there's been like a 350% increase in consumers that are saying their number one concern in their drinking water is microplastics.
[00:27:30] Even on social media and in the news, I mean, you just see all sorts of memes about where microplastics are that they shouldn't be. And I think it's really hit the, the mass public that this is a problem that needs to be addressed. But I don't think the government has really caught up to it yet.
[00:27:46] There was recently a petition from the New Jersey governor and nine other governors to monitor drinking water for microplastics, which is really the first push going after that. My anticipation is they're going to find microplastics in the drinking water if they go looking for it. But I think the big question ultimately is, you know, what are they doing to our bodies?
[00:28:10] And there's a lot of, you know, concern and linkage to what they're doing now, but the, the mechanistic studies of what they're doing from a first principles level hasn't been done yet, which I think is what everybody's waiting for and what the government's waiting for. The only problem is, you know, if we wait too long, microplastic pollution and, and concentrations are expected to double by 2050.
[00:28:32] So I think it's really critical to start acting on solutions and finding ants to it now, which is why we're doing what we're doing. But overall, I think, you know, we're behind the issue for sure.
[00:28:45] Samantha Martin: Your product has been in the market for, what is it, six months now at this point? Yep. Yeah. So could you talk a little bit about that process of commercialization and, and I, I mean, I'm sure you could talk about this for an entire hour of some of the tweaks that you had to make you know, what you anticipated versus what actually happened.
[00:29:08] Max Pennington: Yeah, it's it's actually a really cha like, it sounds relatively straightforward, but it is really challenging to filter out washing machine wastewater down to 50 micron just because washing machines are built really to pump from the ground to the drain. And that's it. So is it, as soon as you apply any sort of back pressure on it, you get.
[00:29:27] Errors and issues. And then you have to deal with everything that goes through a washing machine, which is a surprisingly wide array of different particulate. You'll get sand, you'll get human hair, you'll get pet hair, you'll get cotton, you'll get polyester, you'll get beads and necklaces and you know, we had to go through the process of.
[00:29:46] Building a filter, sending it to a washing machine company, learning of some new way that it got broken by some new thing that we didn't think was gonna go through it like a, a necklace or a certain type of pet hair. And then to go source that and develop it and iterate on the different parts that are on the inside of the filter until it worked and function to actually get.
[00:30:07] Out into the market was challenging. And I, I think we've gotten a lot of credit and built up a lot of credibility for having a product that we took all the way through and getting it to market. Which is really the point of the, the filter that we developed is to really go after our early adopters, the people that are really passionate in the microplastic space, but ultimately to show.
[00:30:28] And washing machine manufacturers, producers, that there are technologies that be implemented at scale that are in the market and working. So we integrated.
[00:30:41] Samantha Martin: I we were, Cleveland Water Alliance and I were just on a panel recently and hearing you talk about how important mm-hmm. Pet hair was in this process for you was so fascinating.
[00:30:51] Max Pennington: Yeah. Yeah. Never, we had to end up like going out to all these groomers in the Cleveland area to get. Pet hair, and we needed a lot of it. So we had to, you know, call up these pet hair people and they were not used to giving out pet hair as something, you know, that somebody wanted.
[00:31:09] And at first we were getting all this wet pet hair and the interns that we had hired from Case were like, we're gonna quit if we keep having to, you know, play around with this smelly, wet pet hair. So I ended up having to call all these groomers to find one that. Wash dried and then shaved their animals so we could get that pet hair which was ultimately on Lee Road, but we, we solved that one.
[00:31:31] But yeah, just things that you would never think that you have to do that you have to do to get a, get a technology and a product to market that worked.
[00:31:38] Samantha Martin: Yeah. I guess I'll put the same thing over to, to Dennis in terms of, you know. Obstacles to commercialization. What has that path been like for you?
[00:31:49] I'm sure you know this pilot, you're gonna be learning a lot as well, but, but so far in this process. What have those obstacles been?
[00:31:56] Dennis M. Flood: Yeah, that's you know, pretty, pretty typical obstacles for us. You know, it's given that water treatment market has been around for a while and, you know, there are a lot of emerging contaminants that come up over the years.
[00:32:10] One of the biggest ones early, and I'll echo a little bit about what Cleveland Water Alliance was talking about, the, the public awareness for PFAS when we first started this. Was just about zero. And it's still surprising to me how many people I talk to that don't know what PFAS or Forever Chemicals are until I mentioned, well, they're in things like Teflon.
[00:32:34] Oh, Teflon. And we're a little careful about making Teflon this evil thing. Teflon itself is inert. There's nothing wrong with Teflon. It's the, the, the constituents that go into making it. But. Yeah, so, you know, for, for us and I've lost my train of thought after getting off, off track there, so for us it's, it's the inertia for current practices is what is a big obstacle that we're, we're still trying to overcome. I mean, 'cause in the water treatment market, you have some really big conglomerates that are, that dominate the absor, the absorptive media market. And it's, it's a resistance to change.
[00:33:19] And these aren't new things. I mean, these are things a new business faces, no matter what market they're heading into. But I will say the one thing. That has helped us is that often policy, federal policy does not drive a market, but in this case, in in the PFAS and Forever chemical space. Federal policy is driving the market to a, to a large extent, but also back to touch on something Cleveland Water Alliance said about microplastics is that the states have been well ahead of the federal government in, in regulating this space.
[00:33:52] So there's always gonna be a market out there for, for PFAS and I would imagine the same thing for, for microplastics because the states. They're taking care of it. And you know, a lot of these states, New Jersey, Michigan is one is a big one because of all the paper mills that used to operate in, in Michigan, so.
[00:34:13] The, you know, those, those obstacles are ones that we're, we're slogging through and, and trying to get over and realizing that, you know, with the impending drinking water standards that that now has been pushed back a couple years. The, the initial drinking water standards for PFAS was instituted in summer of 2024 and, water treatment plants that had PFAS problem had until 2029 to do something, build something, start to remediate that. Now it's been pushed two years. I will say there hasn't been a huge shift in, except for pushing the timeline back a little bit. The, the importance of PFAS is, is still there.
[00:35:02] So there's been a little tweaks, but nothing has really changed because legislatively, nothing has changed. So you know, the, the, the, the regulations are, are in place.
[00:35:16] Samantha Martin: Yeah, it's really interesting because we see that as well with, with lead service line work that we're doing. And Alyssa, if you could plug our next webinar that's actually focused on lead service line detection technology.
[00:35:28] It's the same thing. The states are really and regional utilities are leading the charge there because is legislation around not only replacing the lead service lines, but even knowing where they're at those lead service lines aren't mapped. And so one of the things that we are working on with other innovators as well, is detecting lead service lines without breaking ground.
[00:35:51] But legislation is really sometimes the biggest driver of innovation. Not always, but, but oftentimes, and I think it also makes it culturally relevant as well. Like you said, Cleveland Water Alliance, people are talking about microplastics now, and the more that. There's culture around and then, and awareness around these things.
[00:36:10] You know, I don't think a few years ago we would've seen PFAS in the news with the Olympics even you travel overseas even a few years ago, and you would see in Europe pans that say, you know, PFAS free and, and things like that. So it's, it's a cultural conversation simultaneously happening with a, a legislative conversation and kind of how those two meld together to, to really push innovation forward.
[00:36:36] I want to throw it over to Steve and you kind of have a different perspective here with, with Neundorfer for being in this different market typically. And with, with this new technology now I know that we put out an RFP. We helped with the Ohio H2Ohio TAP program putting out an RFP.
[00:36:57] That's how we found new enders. So this technology existed. Previously, what, what, did it have a water application previously or is this your first time using it in this
[00:37:07] space?
[00:37:08] Steve Ostanek: No, no, it previously it was applied in the same manner that we did the pilot. And it's a good example of a. You know getting acceptance of, of this technology in the, in the nutrient pollution realm is going to be driven by regulation.
[00:37:29] It's going to be driven legislatively because it, it's hard to tie the economics to it. There is potential for savings and even revenue from concentrating the phosphorus. But that is way in the future when that, when that happens. So this technology it was the, the Chesapeake bay Watershed was seriously looking at technologies like H2Ohio was to reduce
[00:38:07] nutrient pollution. And the technology was applied in pilot tested in Pennsylvania. The state legislature was all over it. They had created incentives for the farmers to use it. It was almost at the finish line and the politics in Harrisburg flipped. And now all of that went away. And this.
[00:38:35] Basically went away for about 10 years. Before we
[00:38:40] Samantha Martin: Wow.
[00:38:41] Steve Ostanek: Dug it up and resurrected it and, and started applying it in, in this area. So it depends on which market
[00:38:49] mm-hmm.
[00:38:50] That, that you're looking at in terms of adoption. So in this market and nutrient removal, it's, it's about, you know, it's about more of a, a regulation or a legislative support for it in the other markets, a wastewater treatment plant, I mean, it's about cost savings, you know, if we can, if the technology makes them
[00:39:13] able to process 10 or 15% more throughput with the same equipment for less money. You can put dollar signs to that, right? If it produces 20% more biogas on a, on a biogas operation, that's, that's money that, that kind of built in incentives. So,
[00:39:34] Samantha Martin: yeah,
[00:39:34] Steve Ostanek: just kind of depends.
[00:39:35] Samantha Martin: Absolutely. I'll pass it over to Cleveland Water Alliance.
[00:39:39] And then the other panelists as well. How has being a part of Ohio's innovation ecosystem, other than just reaching out to pet groomers, which is very important for your innovation process process how has being a part of Ohio's innovation ecosystem and working with organizations like CWA and other supportive organizations, how has that shaped Cleanr's growth?
[00:40:03] Max Pennington: I think it's been critical. I mean we always say this and we believe it, that Cleveland's ground zero and the fight against microplastics pollution. And I think there's a lot of resource here. There's a lot of Cleveland pride. There's a I mean there's great network with case. They just got the number 27 best university in the world from time, which was awesome.
[00:40:23] Working with Cleveland Water Alliance, I think there's a great focus on water. We're right on the banks of Lake Erie. And I think all the, the citizens are supportive of protecting the lake. I think. We're familiar with the time where we did not and I think we know the impacts of that. So I think a lot of people are looking at.
[00:40:42] How do we make sure that that's not the case, and how do we set an example of, you know, sort of best practices around the world? And I think we've gotten a lot of support from that. So it's, it's been really critical.
[00:40:53] Samantha Martin: Yeah. And same thing for you, Dennis we'll allow answers from Michigan as well, but any other entities that have been, you know, critical in, in shaping the path of, of CoreWater.
[00:41:06] Dennis M. Flood: Well, I, I would echo a lot of what Cleveland Water Alliance said about Cleveland Water Alliance. I mean, the, the network that Cleveland Water Alliance has already in place for the test beds and in, in helping us to, to establish a pilot with a collaborate with a company they already are working with. It's, it's, you can't put a price tag on that.
[00:41:25] It really can. I mean, it, it takes a long time to establish a relationship with, with another company. And, and having a organization like Cleveland Water Alliance can help. I mean, our first interaction actually with Cleveland Water Alliance was Cleveland Water Alliance, sent us to the Ohio VC Fest where we were able to talk to a lot of people in a lot of different you know, investors, other companies, other
[00:41:50] tech, startups, other, and you know, that that experience in itself helped to lead to a pretty significant investment for our company. So you know, outside of that, it's, you know, knowing and that we have an organization out there that's helping to get the word out about Lake Erie and the Great Lakes region in as a whole with microplastics and the PFAS issue growing.
[00:42:15] I mean, it, it's here. I don't think people really understand how much it's here. And you need an organization like Cleveland Water Alliance to help to get the word out. In addition, I would say that for us, I mean our, our initial focus is here in the States, but you know, we also have filed our patents and patent protection internationally.
[00:42:35] And the Cleveland Water Alliance has an extensive network of international organizations and companies. And I know that that is gonna be critical for us to expanding overseas.
[00:42:48] Samantha Martin: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you Dennis. And Steve, I know we mentioned some of the key entities of Ohio EPA and H2Ohio, but even beyond just this specific technology, any other kind of entities that have been critical in innovation or or expansion with Neundorfer.
[00:43:07] Steve Ostanek: I think you know, we've, our, our technology partner with the cant who kind of came up with this concept initially is, is definitely very important. I think in the future we're really looking at whether what other entities can we collaborate with to. To, you know, come up with a, a a solution that breaks down some of the, the, the barriers to, to entry.
[00:43:45] I mean, we're, we've had 50 years of, of air pollution control experience. Okay? We don't have 50 years experience in the, in the water treatment world and then the agricultural world. So we know that we're gonna have to collaborate with someone on that. And the continue. You know, I, I agree that CWA had pro, you know, provides something very unique in northeast Ohio that other regions just don't have.
[00:44:15] And you know, and that is part of. Of the, of the plan. Right. You know, where else you know, we're probably only scratch the surface of how we can leverage our collaboration with, with CWA. So we have to constantly kind of be nurturing that.
[00:44:33] Samantha Martin: Absolutely. Absolutely. Steve. We've got some questions coming in for Q&A, make sure to get your question in.
[00:44:40] Last question here before we get to those how can our audience, whether they're utilities, investors or just concerned citizens, how can they get involved in supporting water innovation efforts? Specifically as it relates either to your issue that you work on or, or your technology. If anyone wants to jump in there.
[00:45:05] Steve Ostanek: Raise your hand if you want to do something, you know, really get, get involved. There, you know, there's technologies here that are, that are real, right? And, and there's also probably technologies that are emerging that need, need, that pilot experience. And you know, just. Being available and, and to either help or be part of that.
[00:45:36] That pilot experience because that brings real world feedback to the developers. That is so important. And sometimes it takes a really long time to get there. And I think it's a mindset thing. It's. You know, Dennis talked about, Hey, there's technologies that have been out there for 20, 30 years and we're so used to it, and change is really kind of hard.
[00:45:59] And we know this works. We know it's expensive, but it works and, and, but it's just takes someone who's got some guts, right? And, and willingness to take a risk to to partner up with these technologies and say, yeah, let's, let's give it a try. Let's see what, you know, let's see what we can do.
[00:46:21] Dennis M. Flood: Yeah, I would, I would follow on with that a little bit, what Steve is saying, and, you know, other companies, other technologies out there, don't be afraid to reach out for potential collaboration efforts.
[00:46:32] I would say one of the thing that has been refreshing in, in the space we're in PFAS remediation is that regardless of what your technology is, it's not, you know, let's beat up the other guy, let's. Say what's bad about their technology, but it's more let's, how can we work together to solve this issue?
[00:46:52] And that's really what's that? Crux of what we're doing. We're trying to do what's right for the environment. It's, it's really a big driver here at Core Order, and I'm sure it's a driver at, at where Cleveland Water Alliance, with Cleveland Water Alliance and Steve, you know, we're not only trying to run a successful business and make some money doing it, we're truly doing what's right for the environment.
[00:47:15] And it, it really is something that, that has come as, something. My father, who's chief technical officer here, has spent his entire career working in renewables. He was, his, his expertise area was solar energy for space applications, but it, it evolved into all of these things. So you know, it's, it's, it's been really refreshing to the, the sense of collaboration, at least in the PAS mediation market, and hopefully that's what Cleveland Water Alliance and Steve are running into as well.
[00:47:51] Max Pennington: Yeah, no, definitely. I, I think for us, I mean, we do have a consumer facing product, so every filter that we sell and install is super helpful to spread the word. Getting, you know, the word out there that there is something to do about microplastics pollution, and it's not just this scary sort of esoteric problem that there's nothing to do about except here in the news how it's getting worse and worse.
[00:48:11] There is something tangible that you can do. And install a filter, it takes like 30 seconds, you know, a week to maintain it. You can install it in less than 15 minutes without any tools. So that's a really straightforward thing to do. And then too, we're starting to partner with businesses. So a lot of businesses have washing machines.
[00:48:29] They wanna offer, you know, filters as an employee perk, as part of their sustainability benefits. So we're doing a lot of like Earth Day events with different companies around Cleveland. We have a university program that we're trying to expand. So connections to any of that or starting other sustainability sort of initiatives, all of that would be very helpful and appreciated.
[00:48:50] Samantha Martin: Yeah. Thank
[00:48:51] Dennis M. Flood: you. One more thing I would like to add is, you know, we're still considered an early stage company. If there are investors out there, you know, they're interested, we're, we're talking. So you know we, we don't have a product. We're, we're pre-revenue. So we're, we're working toward, toward our revenue and we have a, a runway to meet.
[00:49:11] And, you know, if investors like to get involved in, in projects like this, we're, we're open.
[00:49:19] Samantha Martin: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Dennis. And it's, that's what I, why I really appreciated this, this panel of not only diverse technology and and what you're accomplishing, but oftentimes when I'm, when I'm traveling, when I'm representing the interests of CWA or our innovators, so many folks just, just don't understand what it.
[00:49:37] Takes to move through this world is that, you know, you don't just have an idea and then you're good to go. Let's solve our problems. I, I met with a reporter a year after we put out our RFTs for our lead service line technology, and they were kind of like, what's the update? Why haven't you solved it yet?
[00:49:55] Not understanding all of the time in trialing, and that's why trialing in real world conditions, setting up these real world pilots, going to market, getting feedback from customers. Going to lab, combining your powers with other technologies. We've seen that with quite a few innovators of combining hard tech and software and algorithm, algorithmic based software.
[00:50:18] There's so many ways to kind of plug and play right now and advance technology. So thank you all for, for your time and for, for. For hitting all of these different points of, of how and where and why technology progresses. But really driving home that there is a huge need for piloting in real world conditions, for getting consumer and end user feedback.
[00:50:42] That's a huge need not only in our region but around the world. And that has really made CWA and Ohio a destination for global innovators to come do that work here, but also. That's possible because of this incredible network of, of helpers, of researchers, of organizations that are caring for our water and managing our resources that are so willing to participate in this process.
[00:51:10] We have such a wealth of, of knowledge here and being able to tap it is, is critical to what we're doing. And like you said, Dennis, we're all, we're all in this. Together. We're all looking for these solutions together and we can create a really incredible economic impact doing it. So let's get into some Q&A here.
[00:51:29] First one is for Cleveland Water Alliance. Tell us a little bit about the filtration products, the other products that, that you're dipping your toes into.
[00:51:41] Max Pennington: Yeah, so we're focused I mean, first it's easiest parallel on, you know, stuff leaving your home. So you have your washing machine, you have your dishwasher, you have your dryer.
[00:51:51] All of those have products that go in them. Meta emit microplastics that we think the technology can be applied to and to ultimately remove them. And then what we're starting to shift into is actually microplastics coming into your home. So there's not really. Any mass market whole home water filtration systems that can remove microplastics down to the NSF 4 0 1 standard.
[00:52:12] There's a lot of like under the sink solutions that you can use, which are the point of use style, but we're really targeting on a mass market affordable point of entry filtration system that can remove microplastics from your entire home. So think about. Your tap water, your sink water, your shower water all of that being under one system.
[00:52:33] And then we would also remove chlorine and taste and odor and sediment as well. We're also working to scale the technology up ultimately to go after industrial launderers. So think about hospitals, think about uniform companies and there is actually like an ROI to them where they're getting charged by the wastewater treatment plants today for what they emit out in their wastewater.
[00:52:58] So scaling it up can actually save them money with pretty decent rOI and payback periods.
[00:53:02] Samantha Martin: Yeah. That's a huge market opportunity that most folks wouldn't even think of. That's incredible. Looking at some of the questions in the Q&A, thank you Dennis and Steve for answering some of those via chat.
[00:53:16] Good question. Are these technologies being applied and monitored in one watershed like Cuyahoga River? So these specific technologies. No. However CWA has a monitoring network that covers nearly 8,000 square miles of the lake of various watersheds. And we have partners throughout the Cuyahoga River.
[00:53:40] Cleveland Metro Parks is a really incredible partner for us. That help us deploy and get feedback on technology. So those technologies are not only gathering data for us to use, but they help us deploy new technologies as well. So these specific technologies, no, I mean, I guess Cleveland Water Alliance is technically deployed in the Cuyahoga watershed, but CWA technologies and other innovators, yes.
[00:54:04] I got another question here from Ed. Good question. So Samantha, whatever became of an early CWA innovator for phosphorus removal from John Carroll? Good question, ed. That was a little bit before my time and so I can't speak to that exactly. But the thing is, is Erie Hack was a really, an earlier iteration of, of this work here, and it happened before we had testing and trialing infrastructure.
[00:54:30] So this infrastructure really came into existence in 2020 through EDA funds. That's when we started really building out this piloting infrastructure. Both physical infrastructure and the infrastructure of these incredible. Connections and allowing researchers, like Steve mentioned Heidelberg to be a part of this process as well.
[00:54:49] So I can't speak to that exact technology. However, we have kept up with some innovators who have advanced solutions or who have, maybe are no longer working with that specific solution, but are working in other solutions right now. So Erie Hack was a really incredible springboard for the work that we're doing today and being able to create the infrastructure not only to help support these ideas with funds, but really giving them the avenue to progress and accelerate.
[00:55:20] And ed has a note here about, you know, one way to get involved. We talked about it says, you know, CWA and panelists you know, are you working with congressional reps to get SBIR program reauthorized? So that funding is is, is critical and we, when we speak with our legislators, we're representing, you know, interests of, of, of, economic opportunities and SBIR could be a really, really powerful funding avenue for some of these innovators. So. Great. Great note Ed. Thank you everyone for really great questions. I will leave folks with one final thought here about our upcoming webinar. Alyssa put it in the chat, but Cleveland Water Alliance, Dennis, Steve, any final parting words about maybe advice to innovators that are looking to enter this space as we wrap up here?
[00:56:19] Dennis M. Flood: Well, that's, that's I would say get involved with organizations like Cleveland Water Alliance, and we talk about testing. That's one of the things when you're developing a new technology, particularly one that you're trying to break in and, and raise awareness that, you know, testing. You can't do enough testing.
[00:56:37] You do all the testing you can in your own lab. That only gets you so far. That might get you a few investors in interested in your company. But in order to really prove out your technology, you need a good network to test and third party pilot testing. And the test bed network, that Cleveland Water Alliance is that's, those are the places you need to go.
[00:57:01] Thanks, Dennis Cleveland Water Alliance. Steve, any final words?
[00:57:06] Max Pennington: And just add, you know, staying passionate about the issue that, that you're solving. 'cause it can be really hard and you can have ups and downs and as long as you can center yourself on, you know, you believe in what you're doing, that will get you through it. But I think you've heard from all of us that you definitely have some challenges taking something to market and ultimately, you know, you, you might give up if you don't really believe in what you're trying to do. So I think that's always been in the back of my mind. I'm excited for one day to, you know, walk into a store and hopefully see our technology in a washing machine. That's what that, that's what keeps me going
[00:57:41] Steve Ostanek: and.
[00:57:43] I'll, I'll add don't, don't get discouraged with the zero or one thinking mentality that's out there. This is more of a, a scale. It's a zero to 10. It's incremental improvement. We're solving, trying to solve big problems that have taken decades to fester. And it's gonna take decades to solve.
[00:58:09] And as long as you're making an incremental improvement, that's a win.
[00:58:14] Samantha Martin: Mm-hmm.
[00:58:15] Steve Ostanek: Could be small, doesn't have to be big, but you're. Going the right way on, on this thing.
[00:58:20] Samantha Martin: Absolutely. Thank you everyone so much for your time. We have we'll be following up with the recording for everyone who registered for this.
[00:58:32] Feel free to share it once it's live. Thank you Dennis, Cleveland Water Alliance and Steve for your time. And. Thoughts on our webpage. We have, you know, your websites and, and your LinkedIns. So folks can reach out to you if they have any further questions or want to be involved in your technology moving forward.
[00:58:50] And we hope to see you at our next webinar focused on lead service line detection technology. Thank you so much everyone.
[00:58:58] Dennis M. Flood: Thank you. Thank you.
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